Tuesday, 11 March 2008

Ignor the shoplifting damages scam

Sometime in February 2008, a 16-year-old girl stole a $6 ring from the Zellers store in the Northland Mall on Highbury Avenue in London, Ontario. The teen was nabbed and then detained by store security. The police were called and showed up, as did the girl's mother. No charges were laid, but the girl was banned from Zellers for a year.

A few weeks later, the girl's mother received a letter from a Toronto-based lawyer representing Zellers. The letter cited the shoplifting incident and stated the retailer "has the right to claim damages from you as a parent or guardian of the young person for failing to provide reasonable supervision."

The letter stated the retailer was prepared to settle its claim for damages in return for $500, but this amount might increase if payment wasn't received by mid-March. A similar letter sent to another mother demanded $475 for $5 worth of candy.
Such ‘recovery costs’ sent to shoplifters or their parents from lawyers are quite common in Ontario and for that matter, other provinces.

The Hudsons Bay Company has put in place a "civil recovery program" that "requires a shoplifter to pay for a portion of the costs incurred as a result of their apprehension."

According to the Retail Council of Canada (RCC), theft costs the country's retailers $3 billion a year ----- or nearly $8 million a day. The RCC attributes about 55 per cent of those losses (or ‘shrinkage’) to customers, 26 per cent to employees and 19 per cent to administrative errors.

A similar case took place in Alberta in 1999. The court said in part; “I have an additional difficulty with the plaintiff's claims and which involves the allocation of the damages sought from the defendants in these proceedings. I presume that not all of the plaintiff's shortages are attributable to shoplifting and that not all shoplifters are apprehended. If I am correct in this assumption, then how can the plaintiff, with any degree of certainty, allocate any portion of the cost of the program against these defendants?”

There was another case held in Manitoba in which Zellers was claiming damages against the parents of the child. In that case, their child had been apprehended shoplifting from Zellers. The store's solicitor wrote to the parents of the child claiming that Zellers "…has a legal right to claim Civil Restitution from you…" and then demanding "Restitution for costs of incident including damages and costs: $225.00." The plaintiff paid the amount claimed and then commenced proceedings to recover back the amount paid, alleging they made a mistake in paying Zellers. Judge Jewers said at paragraph 12 of his decision; "In my opinion, Zeller’s claim was not merely a doubtful claim - it was an invalid claim."

The director of community legal services at the University of Western Ontario says his advice to people who receive such claims is simple: Ignore it.

"We represent people at the clinic who are charged with shoplifting and they usually get these letters," says Doug Ferguson, an adjunct professor with UWO's faculty of law. "We tell them to ignore it. And none of our clients have come back to us and said they've been sued." When I was practicing law, I had clients come to me with such letters from lawyers demanding ‘recovery costs’. I sent each of the lawyers a letter telling them that I told my clients to ignore their letters. None of my clients were sued either.

It's simply not worth it for a corporation to go to court (to recoup) $500 since it would cost more than that to show up. Even if they used a law student or a paralegal to appear on behalf of the department store, it would cost the corporation more than that to show up and the costs awarded to the advocate would be $300 as legal fees if the damages claimed exceed $500 and nothing in legal fees if the damages claimed are less than $500.

Obviously, to go after shoplifters or their parents civilly is just an intimidation tactic used in hopes of recovering some of their administrative losses.

The courts in the past for the most part have questioned the retailers' claim that processing a shoplifter is costly, arguing the stolen property has been recovered, the stores already have security personnel and equipment in place and there are no significant other costs to processing a shoplifter.

Nowadays, if a child is apprehended as a shoplifter, the retailers are simply taking advantage of the Parental Responsibility Act, which was enacted by the Ontario government in 2000 and holds parents financially responsible for property loss, damage or destruction intentionally caused by their children under 18 years of age. The maximum allowable claim is $10,000.

Section 2 of the Parent Responsibility Act of Ontario states;

"Where a child takes, damages or destroys property, an owner or a person entitled to possession of the property may bring an action in the Small Claims Court against a parent of the child to recover damages, not in excess of the monetary jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court (a) for loss of or damage to the property suffered as a result of the activity of the child; and (b) for economic loss suffered as a consequence of that loss of or damage to property."

That might apply if the item stolen from the store was not recovered, but when the shoplifter has been apprehended and the item has been recovered, the section 2 simply doesn’t apply.

The Act also says:
“The parent is liable for the damages unless the parent satisfies the court that,(a) he or she was exercising reasonable supervision over the child at the time the child engaged in the activity that caused the loss or damage and made reasonable efforts to prevent or discourage the child from engaging in the kind of activity that resulted in the loss or damage….”

That aspect of the legislation won’t help the store at all. The key words in this part of the act is; “exercising reasonable supervision over the child at the time the child engaged in the activity that caused the loss…”

Parents are not expected to watch over their school-age children 24 hours a day every day of the week. For example, suppose a child at the age of twelve; goes to a store after school and steals a ball-point pen. Meanwhile, both parents are at work at this time. Are they expected to exercise reasonable supervision of their child at the moment their child steals the item from the store? Obviously not.

Where it would apply is if the child is with them in the store at the time the child steals the pen. It could be then said that they were not exercising reasonable supervision of their child at that moment. However, the store would still have to prove damages after the item was returned and as I said earlier, that would be difficult, if not impossible.

There are situations where the victims of children who cause damage or loss can successfully sue the parents. For example, a child beats another child and cause injuries; or a child throws a rock through a neighbour’s window. These are vicious acts and one may concluded that any child that does that has not been brought up properly.

However, if a child is playing baseball in his back yard and the baseball goes though a neighbour’s window, that act by itself is not actionable because the child simply didn’t know any better. However, if it happens again after the parents have been told about the incident, then they can be sued because they have not exercised reasonable supervision of their child whom they knew was stupid enough to play baseball in his back yard knowing the risk of damaging a neighbour’s window like the last time.

In summary, let me say that when my children were afraid of the boogey man when they were small, I turned on the light and said “BOO!” and the boogie man disappeared.

If as a parent, you get one of those ridiculous letters from a lawyer, send a letter back with only this one word “BOO!” and like monsters in the dark, he or she will disappear.

Please Note: What follows is an email message I received from one of my readers.

I just read your article online about the recovery letters that are being sent from Zellers Inc. My daughter did not get caught shoplifting, but was with a girl who did (according to the police) and I still got a recovery letter demanding 500$ as a "settlement amount". I am glad I read your blog, I will ignore it since there is really nothing to recover.



Here is another scam taking pace in the United States.

Store security offers shoplifters a choice: Take $500 online class or we’ll call the police. Some of the country’s biggest retailers, from Walmart to Bloomingdale’s to Abercrombie & Fitch, are being accused of extorting $500 from shoppers caught swiping merchandise.

The bizarre twist is spelled out in a class-action lawsuit filed in federal court in San Jose that came about when a mother shopping for a birthday barbecue with her kids was stopped while leaving the self-checkout at Walmart. The retailer’s loss-prevention officers took her aside and accused her of not paying for hot dog buns and a water bottle. They gave her a choice: Cop arrest for shoplifting or alternatively, agree to pay $500 for an online class aimed at setting her on the straight and narrow. 

No matter how you look at that threat, it is a form of blackmail  and black mailing anyone with respect to a crime anyone  committed is also a crime.                                  

A Utah company provides classes called Corrective Education Company which they say is a win for everyone. The accused shoplifter avoided an arrest, jail and criminal record while learning crime doesn’t pay. The retailer got justice and the  cops stay focused on more pressing needs. I have to admit that it makes some sense. What shoplifter would shoplift again if he or she had to fork out $500 for shoplifting?


I should point out that in the City of Toronto, in Canada, if the police are called by store security, the shoplifter will be arrested and  charged with theft  under $5000.  If the shoplifter can show ID which gives the police the home address, the shoplifter will be released with a form that will tell the shoplifter where and when to go to court. In court, the judge will not pass a guilty sentence on the shoplifter providing the shoplifter agrees to attend a one hour session relating to shoplifting. If the shoplifter attends the session, the conviction will be removed and the shoplifter has no criminal record pertaining to the shoplifting event. Further, the shoplifter doesn’t have to pay for the session. 


111 comments:

Unknown said...

I am happy and relaxed that i found your blog on "ignor the shoplifting damage scam" i receved the same letter from the lawyer of zellers asking $500 as recovery cost whitch i am not going to pay after reading your artical and i am not also able to pay. Now my question is I SIGHNED THE CLAIM FORM Does it make any diffErence as at that time i was not aware of the situation. My son is 12 and was caught for $ 4. i was so upset and sighned this form .please guide me .now should i pay or not .i donot know whgat to do? pl help

Tara Mac said...

Thank you for this post. Just yesterday I recieved a letter from an Ontario lawyer demanding $500 from me within 330 days. My 16 year old was caught stealing a bag of M & M's candy retails for $3.39. They even got the candy back and un opened. Thank you for sharing this advise to ignore the letter as I was thinking that i would need to get a lawyer. I will ignore this but i sure would like to have a bit of fun with it first.

Steven Li said...

Today i recieved a letter from Patrick K. Martin (Barrister and solicitor) he said that he was going to charge me 500 dollars for the items i tried to steal. the items were recovered, but was damaged.
After reading this letter, i hope you repley as soon as possible because i only have 24 days to decide wether i should pay or not. i am a 15 year old teen, and i am very sorry for what i did and regret every single moment of that.

additional information (step by step):
first i tried stealing 60 dollars worth of games( 20 dollars each, 3 copies)
second: then the undercover security guard took me into his office, jotted down my information etc... ( however, when he was jotting down what i did, he wrote down $89.95 worth of merchendise was taken instead of $60.00.

Third: he called the police, they questioned me and escorted me to my house.

Fourth: 3 weeks later, i recived this letter



P.S, i am a very lost and full of shame. my parents were disappointed and in shock please Mr. Batchelor guide me.

Steven Li said...

i also live in Toronto.

Steven Li said...

should i just ignore the paper?
this is a exact copy of the letter:
PATRICK K. MARTIN, B.A.,LL.B.,B.C.L.
BARRISTER AND SOLICITER

1370 DON MILLS ROAD, SUITE 300
TORONTO, ONTARIO, M3B 3N7
TEL (416) 847-3359 FAX (416) 847-3358

WITHOUT PREDJUDICE

PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
Dear Mr. Parent

Re: Zellers Inc. and Parent of Child
Recovery of Civil Damages/Our Case Number ZZZZ ? XXXXXX

I am external legal counsel for Zellers Inc. (the ?Retailer?) with respect to civil recovery matters. It is alleged that on March XX, 2007, a young person under your care and custody, (namely The Child) took unlawful possession of merchandise from the Retailer?s premises located at Zellers Inc, 489 Albert Street N. , Regina, SK. The retailer takes the position that it has right to claim damages from the said your person and/or you as a result of such action based on theft, damages and conversion. The Retailer?s right of civil recovery and payments made to the Retailer are separate and distinct from any criminal proceedings which may be instituted by the police.

The retailer also takes the position that it has the right to claim damages from you as a parent or guardian of the young person for failing to provide reasonable supervision of the young person. You have a right to be represented by a lawyer with respect to this claim.

The Retailer is prepared to settle its claim for damages in return for a payment of $500.00 (the ?Settlement Amount?), received on or before February XX, 2010. If this amount is not paid, I may receive specific instruction, whether or not to arrange for a law firm in your jurisdiction to commence legal proceedings before a civil court for all damages, plus interest, legal expenses, and other administrative costs incurred by the Retailer in connection with this matter. These latter amounts may increase if payment is not made by the noted date. This settlement amount is based on the costs associated with the detection, apprehension, recovery of goods and damages associated with shoplifting, hereafter referred to as Recovery Costs. Retailers have calculated the average Recovery Costs to be approximately $900.00. The settlement amount is significantly lower than the Recovery Costs, however, should the retailer be compelled to prove costs in Court, they would rely on the higher or actual amount of Recovery Costs in any civil claim field.

Should you choose to settle the Retailer?s payment of the Settlement Amount, payment should be made by cheque or money order, made payable to ?CIVIL RECOVERY? on behalf of the Retailer, with your name and the above case number noted thereon. The payment should be sent in the enclosed postage paid envelope or to the following address: P.O. Box 193, Streetsville, Ontario L5M 2B8.

I have been advised that Canadian retailers estimate shoplifting amounts to an annual expense exceeding $4.0 billion. Experience indicates that pursuing shoplifters for such losses reduces the number of shoplifting incidents, resulting in savings which can then be passed on to the consumers. The Hudson?s Bay v. White supports the position that shoplifters, in certain cases, are liable for punitive damages.

Any questions in regard to this matter are to be made in writing, and addressed to the undersigned.

Yours truly,
(his signiture)
Patrick Martin , B.A.,LL.B.,B.C.L.

Unknown said...

Hello There;

I suggest that this lawyer, who from personal experience appears to be the only one doing this, be reported to the Ontario Law Society. This intimidating behavior is borderline unethical and unbecoming of a lawyer.

Some lawyers do act as collection agents, but this one is abusing his legal knowledge and acting like a greedy asshole.

Sara said...

Hi Steven. I was wondering what happened after that? I got a letter from the same lawyer and have about two weeks to pay.
I would really appreciate a reply!
Thanks.

Sara said...

I am nervous and would appreciate your reply.

Dahn Batchelor said...

From what I have read in Steven's comment, he has been told by that creepy lawyer that because he is the parent of a child who shoplifted from Zellers, that he is personally responsible for the money owing to Zellers. That is utter hogwash. If he was in Zellers at the time, and he saw his child shoplifting from Zellers and didn't do something to stop him, then he would be personally liable as the father of the child. But since he wasn't in Zellers and was unaware that his child had shoplifted from Zellers, he is not personally liable. The lawyer is using that particular law to scam money from Steven. My message to him and other apprehensive victims of that lawyer, just ignore this creepy lawyer's threatening letters as they have no authority in law.

Tina said...

Dear Dahn Batchelor,

Thanks for your advise. My roommate (she 36y.o.) did such stupid thing that she is very sorry that and feels devasted. Today we received a letter on Recovery of Civil Damage from the same lawyer Partick K. Martin (as Steven Li mentioned) presenting him as a Legal Counsel for Winners Mechants International. The settlement he claims is 595$ (for 11$ brush that was received undamaged). The rest of the letter is identical to what Steven Li has mentioned. The payment needs to be made within 2 weeks (they sent the prepaid envelope and green paper asking to complete the Credit Card full information)... very suspicious.

I would really apprecitae if you could advise if this can be ignored. SHe needs to appear in the court anyway.. (the police gave her the notice to provide fingerprints and another day to appear in the court) and I don't understand how legitimate is this. PLease please advise if the payment can be ignored and what can be consequences.

thanking you in advance. would appreciate your quick response as the payment is due in 5 days.

jamey said...

I got the same letter but it was for winners. He wants me to pay 1400.00!!! It's ridiculous seeing as the merchandise I stole was worth 57.97 and I agreed to pay that back to winners. I heard if you do not pay that it could damage your credit. I am 21 years old so it wouldn't have anything to do with my parents at this point. What should I do?

LaurenJ said...

Jamey - You're lucky. I switched a phone cover that I had purchased previously for another one as the original did not fit my phone correctly. I did this in store, went and paid for my other item and then left. I was apprehended and eventually received a letter asking for $595.00. I exchanged one phone cover of equal value with another... I was made to switch the covers back, and clearly I had purchased another item in store and was just being lazy by not exchanging the item at the register.

Anyway I received my second threat letter today, and from what I've read, I'm going to ignore it.

A $5 phone cover exchanged for another $5 phone cover hardly requires $595 in damages.

Unknown said...

Back in July I made the stupid mistake of stealing from Walmart which was where I worked. I was taken to the back by LP officers and they were super nice and explained it but then I was told I was to either pay back the amount i owed (70 dollars) within 24 hours or they would add a restitution fee of 376 dollars on top of that. I didn't have the money and nor would they budge. I received a letter from Patrick K. Martin just like the others have and got the exact same letter word for word just with Walmart instead of the previous accusations made towards the other commentaries. I wish I had seen this before because I am now on my third month of my 80 dollar installments. I know theft is wrong but the ridiculous notion that I need to pay them so much more than I took is ridiculous. EVERYONE NEEDS TO IGNORE THOSE LETTERS.

Unknown said...

Amy said: I am under theft under 5000. I went to court yesterday, but court does not have my info. I just want to know if I will receive another paper from police that want to go to court again. thanks

Dahn Batchelor said...

Amy: Your question is a hard to answer because you didn't say if the charge was dismissed by the judge. If the charge was dismissed, then you won't have to go back to court. If the judge didn't tell you to return to court on a certain date, then you won't have to return to court.
Dahn Batchelor

Unknown said...

Amy said: thanks. i do not remember if the judge said the case is dismissed or not but they stamped on the notice that state I show up but no file in the court. and told me to keep the notice for 6 months. What I concern is if the police will come to my place and give me another notice and require me go to court. Thanks for your help

Dahn Batchelor said...

Amy: I seriously doubt that you will have to go back to court again. Shoplifting is a crime but the courts are swamped with very serious crimes and there simply aren't enough courts to handle that many cases so in order to make those courts available for the serious crimes to be tried, I don't think they want your case being re-heard. If after 6 months you haven't been told to return to court, the matter will be closed .

Unknown said...

Amy said. Many thanks for your help.

Unknown said...

Hi, I'm Natalia. I recently got caught stealing at Walmart in January, all things were given back and I had criminal charges pressed. All charges were dropped and I had to pay a small fee at the court house since this is my first offence. My lawyer advised me not to pay the $500 Patrick Martin fee. Now I get a final notice saying they will take me to civil recovery court? What shall I do?

Dahn Batchelor said...

Your lawyer is right. Igor the letter and the lawyer who sent the threatening letter will scamper into a hole in the wall like the rat it is.

Dahn Batchelor

Anonymous said...

I contacted the company itself and told them about my health situation and had it forgiven with no issues, though the representative almost sounded like he didn't even know what I was referring to.

Unknown said...

I have recieved a final notice from Patrick K. Martin (Barrister and solicitor) he said that he was going to charge me $695; the items that were recovered. This is $100 more than the first notice which I ignored after the advice of a lawyer here in Alberta. My worry is it seems like it's not going away. I have gone to court and was told that I am eligible for the Alternative Measure Program and doing counselling. Was there ever an instance when this matter was pursued by the retailer and this lawyer? The deadline given to me is in 5 days. Please advise...

Dahn Batchelor said...

Ignor the deadline. He is wasting his time and paper sending you notices. Use his letters to wrap your garbage in them. Not one of those who this twerp sent letters to was ever sued.

Unknown said...

Thanks Dahn. I will ignore this letter then

MM said...

Hi, I was accused a accomplice when my friend was caught stealing in Winner International. After doing some research online I decided to ignore Patrick K Martin's first letter but I have just received his "final notice". What actions should I take?

Dahn Batchelor said...

Ignor, Ignor, ignor this creep's final letter. There is one good thing about this creep`s letter. It will be his last letter to you. This lawyer is like a stone trying to rise above the scummy bottom of a putrid pond. Every time he makes the attempt, he continues to fall to the bottom again. Many people have been the recipients of this creep`s final letter and then they heard no more from him.

Cb said...

Hi dahn I was sent the same letter from this Patrick guy saying if I don't pay the 500$ they will take legal action. It was something from shoppers drug mart that was 20$ and I paid for it. I was not told to sign anything but the mall security's paper telling me I can come back . I was only given a warning by the cops and that's it... This was at the end of may. What should I do? And if they send me another letter what should I do ?

Cb said...

I got the same letter saying if I don't pay 500$ by July 22 they'll take me to court. The item was from shoppers drug mart and I paid the 20$ for it, the cops told me I was only getting a warning because it was my first time . The only thing I had to sign was that I'm aware I can not come back for a year by mall security . Should I just ignore the letter? And if the said me another one what should I do?

Dahn Batchelor said...

I keep telling everyone who sends me their concerns. Don't pay this lawyer a cent. It is a scam. So far, no one has been sued by this lawyer so why would anyone want to pay this man anything?

Unknown said...

Hi, I have just received a letter from Patrick K. Martin regarding of the recovery of Civil damages. When I got caught shoplifting, police officer charged me $65 fine ticket and the security told me that I'll be getting a bill in my mail to make a payment for the item that I took. However I never had a chance to pay for the bill since I did not receive any letter. However instead of the bill I received the letter from Patrick saying I have to make a payment of 602.99 (the "settlement amount"). I have contacted the supervisor of the security at the store and confirmed if everything will be okay and he said yes it's fine. What should I do now? After reading all comments up there, I think I shouldn't pay however it scares me!! What do I need to do now? Should I need to contact the store again to send me a bill so I can pay for the item that I stole?

Dahn Batchelor said...

Let sleeping dogs lie undisturbed.

Ticked off mom said...

Ok. My son was an idiot. Tried to steal a fishing hook from walmart on July 13. Today I receive the famous recovery of civil damages letter demand I as his mother pay 500.00. First I read this letter and wanted to vomit! Then I read it a few more times...and decided ok this guy is a bigger idiot than my son! The officer who came did give my son a fine but he literally asked my permission to do so. His words were " I normally send kids on their way to face the punishment of their parents.....however your son will soon be 16 and this is going to hit him exactly where it hurts. He wants his license and unless HE pays this fine he won't get it" I said fine give him the fine let me the hell out of here! My son is now working in a machine shop for the summer for FREE ...so he thinks. He is working 8 hrs a day getting extremely dirty and being put to work hard as punishment. His pay will come at the end of the summer of course but it's going in a college fund! He does not know about this arrangement he simply thinks he is having his butt kicked good! I have read several articles about this lawyer and these demand letters. I will not be paying it. However I have told my son he will be. Although the money will NOT go to this lawyer it will go to the local food bank or humane society. If at the end of all this and his social life as he knew it now ruined as well as working his butt off he hasn't learned a lesson I don't know. But I am pretty sure the look of disgust he has for himself is telling me lesson has been learned! Thanks for this article! This letter and subsequent ones will be ignored. However, I do have one question....can this idiot lawyer put a mark on my credit for this?

Dahn Batchelor said...

I have never heard of any of these lawyers ever sending in reports to the credit bureaus. The lawyer is not a creditor and I don't think Wal-Mart is either. Only creditors can make entries in credit bureaus.

Unknown said...

I have read all the comments and most of them seem to be similar to my case. Much like everyone else I am deeply ashamed of my actions, and through that traumatizing experience have never repeated this offense again.

I know it is tedious to keep telling people to ignore the letters but please let me know through e-mail or comment if ignoring the letters is really an opinion of me.

I received a Civil Recovery demand letter also from Mr.Martin for $500. I was apprehended and questioned by the LP and Police officer in May. The merchandise that I took was of a large sum. I can no exactly remember how much. No fingerprints were taken nor were pictures. They just took down my name, address and D.O.B. I have received a letter from the Ontario Court of Justice Provincial Offenses Office and was fine $70 for "Engaging in prohibited activity", which I have already paid. I am extremely nervous because I am not able to afford the fine.
I am currently a nursing student and am legally an adult.
Should I pay the fine?
Will this affect my criminal record, or any aspects of my future in any way?

Please Mr.Dahn or anyone else that is has or is in a similar situation please. shed some light.
Thank you guys very much in advance.

Dahn Batchelor said...

You have already paid the fine. You do not have to pay the lawyer's demand for $500.

Unknown said...

I wonder if I can sue the company for physical harassment for detaining me in an extremely cold and tiny room? As I was shivering like hell and the police officers they witnessed this happened. I asked the security if he can kindly turn the A/C down but he said he couldn't do it. I got really ill on that day and I was not capable of attending school.

And also, when I request the undercover security for his name. He said he doesn't have to tell me. So I asked for identification, he "showed" from a distance where I was incapable of reading any information. He also verbally humiliated me because I told him I am sorry I had a bad day and I forgot to paid. Can you please advise me Mr. Batchelor?

Dahn Batchelor said...

Even though you shoplifted an item, the security guard had to treat you properly. To place you in a cold room when he could have placed you in a warmer room was improper on his part. Your should file a complaint to the store manager and also the chief of police with respect to the actions of the police officer. If you have evidence that you became ill as a result, you can sue the store in the small claims court for damages.

The security guard had a duty to give you his name and not prevent you from
seeing his ID badge.

If you have been charged with shoplifting, explain to the judge how you were mistreated by both the security guard and the police with respect to being kept in an extremely cold room that made you ill. The judge may dismiss the charge against you. One thing is for sure. You won't be going to jail.

If you get a letter from a freak lawyer demanding money from you, tell him to go to hell. These freaks who demand money from shoplifters never win in court and they know it.

john does roommate said...

Hi Dan if he gets a letter he will ignore it.
Little different situation here

my roommate went to shoppers drug mart Ontario his doctor told him he needed Feminine hygiene product he was male. went into the store intended buy the product But became embarrassed so he opened the box of an 11 dollar item and took it then left the store.

He felt awful about it so 3.5hrs later he returned to find the box and pay for it. He was approached upon entering and asked to come see video footage. They asked him if he wanted to say anything first and without seeing the footage he admitted to taking the item because he was too embarrassed. They said they would not call the police but they would give him a trespass notice. They took his picture photocopied hid student ID and gave him a copy of the notice. Nothing signed no police called. He has never done anything before but he is 29 and trying to be a teacher. So any criminal charges could ruin his life. He bought the empty box before leaving he did not have the item on him.

If they did not call the police can criminal charges be filed against him.

What should he expect other than that scam letter.
Is his life ruined and will never be a teacher because criminal charges can be filed after the fact and without his knowledge. He told them he lived at the University residence but that was the only address they got so he doesn't even know if he can get mail from them.

Thanks

John Does roomate

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dahn Batchelor said...

Since you only got a warning from the police officer, this incident will not be considered an offence that will result in you getting a criminal record.

Unknown said...

I switched price tags in one t-shirt and a bag. I paid for these 2 items. A security guard caught me outside of Winners store in Calgary, AB. The security lady took me to a room and called the police. The guard took the 2 items and returned my money in cash. The police came but no charges were pressed. The policeman was very kind and told me that this wouldn't affect my criminal record, but the store will send me a letter.
I have received the mentioned letter by Patrick Martin asking me to pay $595.
My question is, if I don't pay and they decide to sue me in court, will I have to pay also their legal expenses, damages, interests. besides of my lawyer. Around how much will i have to pay if this happen? I am scared, please advise.

Dahn Batchelor said...

As you can see from my article and the responses I have given in my replies, you have nothing to be scared about. Just don't shoplift again.

Unknown said...

I won't make another mistake like this again. Thank you very much for your advise, Dhan!

Sarah W said...

Hi, I have read many advice to not pay this settlement fee. However, if I am over 18 and my attempted shoplift was caught on camera, will I be more likely to be sued?
Also, I do not have a criminal record but if the company were to sue me and wins, will I receive a criminal record then?
I would like to thank you and your reassuring blog post.

palak said...

I was caught for shoplifting from walmart on 28 jan, i got a ticket from police officee an dthey got my signature on paper, i already paid.my ticket. Then i got a letter claiming 500$ to settle it, im an international student so i got scared, and sent them my credit card info on feb 28, n my last date is 4 march, i really want to save my money. There is no deduction from my credit card yet, should i block my card before they chargw mee or is there any way i can save my money, is getting my credit card blocked a option for me, please reply asap

Dahn Batchelor said...

Contact the bank that gave you the credit card and tell them to cancel the card and issue another. This is the only way you can stop the lawyer from using it.

Dahn Batchelor said...

TO SARAH.

You won't get a criminal record over a civil matter.

Sugar said...

Hello dahn thanks very much for your blog I had my second letter in the mail today from the creep Kenneth martin asking for 695.00 which I am going too ignore also at the time off my shoplifting incident I was heavily medicated as I was recovering from knee surgery and I honestly forgot I had the sunglasses on my head which I had tried on earlier as I walked out off the store I was approached by 2 lp officers I made a mistake and they called the cops I was not charged by the cops but I received a letter from the creep too psy 595.00 which I ignored I now received another letter which I will ignore I am seriously considering suing the bay as I was mistreated by the lpo officers I am diabetic on insulin at the time off the incident I was on pain meds plus I asked for water I was told no I felt I was racially profile being a person off color I ask for my bag so I can test my blood sugar I was told not too touch my bag my bag was then pushed too the other end off the table

Dahn Batchelor said...

Sugar: Yo have a legitimate complaint about being refused to be given water or have access to your bag. If you want to sue the store, do it in the small claims court and sue only for $500. They will settle out of court. By the way, had you been charged with shoplifting, the case would be dismissed because the prosecutor wouldn't be able to prove that you had the criminal intent to steal the sunglasses. Forgetting something that is in your hand is common. Years ago, I left a store with a can of soup in my hand. Then I realized that I had forgotten to pay for it. I returned to the store and the owner said with a smile. "I figured you would come back."

Unknown said...

Very good advice I love your blog now I know what to do when the letter will come. I can say the police was called and they came but there was no charges they let me go telling me that I will get a letter at home and i can't go in the store for 1 year. The police has a copy of the report can they do something if I will ignore the letter? Thank you so much

Dahn Batchelor said...

If you have been barred from the store for a year, you can be charged with trespassing and given a fine. I suggest you wait till the year is over then you can re-enter the store again.

Dahn Batchelor

Dahn Batchelor said...

If you have been barred from the store for a year, you can be charged with trespassing and given a fine. I suggest you wait till the year is over then you can re-enter the store again.

Dahn Batchelor

Tina said...

I was barred from Winners, Marshalls for life.. (shoplifting of 10$ item from Winners)...how serious they are? What can you suggest? almost 2 years have past.. will they notice me if I shop there?

Dahn Batchelor said...

If they see you in the store before the two years is up, they can have you charged with trespassing.

Tina said...

Thanks Dahn for your response, but my question was that I was barred for LIFE or for GOOD not sure how can they keep track of all the violators... 2 years have passed and I never went to neither winners nor marshalls. Can I assume the docs are filed far enough and they won't identify me with the camera if I go for SHOPPING.
The violation I had was stupidiest thing in my life (cosmetics at 10$) and here I am with LIFE Barring from both stores.
Please advise.

Dahn Batchelor said...

TARZI: I have never heard of anyone getting a second letter from that lawyer. DON'T pay that lawyer anything. Legally you don't owe him or the store anything. As to your second question, if you were not charged, it will not show up on your reference check.

Dahn Batchelor said...

TINA: I am surprise that you were barred for LIFE. I have never heard of any store barring a shoplifter for life unless they are a professional shoplifter. I suggest that you go to the two stores and ask to speak to the managers. Tell them what you did two years ago and promise them that you won't do anything like that again and tell them that you would like to return to their stores and shop in their stores again. There is a good chance that they will invite you back into their stores as a shopper. Let me know what their decision is.

Dahn Batchelor said...

I stand corrected if some people got second letters. But I stand by my original statement that
since I originally wrote this article, I have not heard of anyone being sued for shoplifting if the goods were recovered by the store. If anyone is sued, send me a copy of the claim by email and I will write your defence for you free of charge and email it back to you.

Dahn Batchelor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I received this letter from Patrick Martin and asking me to pay $1000+ for civil recovery. I worked at winners and switched some tickets and now the LP ask me to signed some papers admitting it and because I was so nervous I signed it and now they told me that I will be receiving a letter. Now I got the letter do I have to pay it? It says there that if I don't they will send a much higher price for that one. I'm confused. Should I pay it or just ignore it as you say but I'm afraid this will go to court and I don't want that to happen. Please help.

Dahn Batchelor said...

You won't be going to court. He knows that he will lose in court. if you want to have some real fun, send this creep a letter back with only these words on it. "BOO. I AM NOT AFRAID OF THE BOGEYMAN."

Anonymous said...

So it doesn't matter even if I'm in Regina? I just don't want to receive any letter from him ever again. I'm afraid that if I don't pay them within the specified date that they will ask for a much higher settlement amount. I really hope that ignoring the letter will give me peace of mind.

Unknown said...

Hi
I got letter from canada beaure to pay the amount in 5 days and by the time i received letter i have already passed the date.so what should i do and will it effect my credit history?

Dahn Batchelor said...

Ignor the letter and it is highly unlikely that there will be an entry in the credit bureau.

Unknown said...

Hi Dahn i am very hopeful after finding your blog and hoping that all my questions will be answered. I have got the letter saying Recovery of Civil Damages from the same lawyer Patrick K Martin demanding for $595.00. I was caught for shoplifting at Hudson Bay in white oaks mall London, Ontario (It was a tee shirt worth $70). I also signed the admitting document and accepting the conditions to not trace pass the mall and Hudson Bay store as i was very scared. I have been now banned from the white oaks mall for three years and from shopping in Hudson Bay for 5 years. Though the cops didn't charged me and the officer just ave me the warning. But still m scared. And now i received this mail from this lawyer demanding this amount of $595. So now i am confused that whether i should pay it or not? As i am also on student visa i am more worried about it. That it wont affect on my credit history and create a criminal background? Waiting for your reply. The deadline for the payment is after 10 days. Please help and guide me.

Elliot said...

i received a civil recovery letter demanding for $500 by January 3rd. I obviously don't have that amount of money and i was wondering if i should ignore it even though they are asking for is a lot of money? I know this must sound very repetitive to the other comments but I'm really scared and i don't want anyone finding out about this.

Dahn Batchelor said...

To the two aforementioned readers I have this message. ignore this lawyer's letter. It is a scam.

Unknown said...

I got caught shoplifting 79 dollars in a grocery store. All items were returned and gave me a blue form 9. I received a letter about damages for 375 dollars! will this damage my credit? Please help! and at the time I was at the grocery store with my 5 year old. She did not know what was going on and I am so ashamed...First time doing this and I seriously learned my lesson. Mr Dahn will the judge be hard on me because my child was there? the police did not say anything about child services or anything but I am scared now. Please any information will be of so much help..

Unknown said...

Hello! I'm an 18 year old adult as stated in my province of Manitoba, I stole a pregnancy test that I was too nervous to pay for at till as the shoppers was busy, I was caught by an undercover shopper (basically someone pretending to shop but they are security) he then took me to the back, I had handed the test back and told him I would pay for it because I was just too shy to pay at first but he refused, took my purse, looked through all of my belongings, took my information and all that jazz and I was banned from shoppers for a year.

I was wondering if this would ruin me? Like if I wanted to get a job would this come up? I need to know so I can figure this out so I can save up and pay this inreasonable fine of $600 for a stupid $20 item.. or simply ignore it? I'm very confused.

Dahn Batchelor said...

Sara: I don`t know what that blue 9 form is. If a police officer gave it to you then you will have to go to court. The judge will lecture you and you may get a small fine. If a police officer didn`t give you the form, then you don`t have to go to court. Ignor the demand for $375 as it is a scam. The credit bureau won`t know about this event.

Dahn Batchelor said...

Jonathan: No one other that the store knows that you stole something. That being as it is, that event in your life will have no effect on your future jobs.Don`t pay that so-called fine. It is a scam.Just ignore it. Everyone else ignors that scam.

Unknown said...

Thank you so much Dahn. The blue form is "Form 9" where it says I have to get fingerprints and go to court just like you said. sorry to have so many questions but I have two more... I was so afraid about social services because I read on a lawyer's website that they can come and investigate you. Is that true? like I said my child is five and she did not had a clue what was going on. I stayed calm and was very polite to the security guard and police. I don't have anything to hide to social services if they come but I really want all this nightmare done..will I be expecting them? will the judge be tough on me because of that?

and we had planned a trip to the US before all this and is coming in a few weeks (basically after I get my fingerprints done), would that be a problem? will customs ask me questions about what happened?
Thank you again for your time.

Dahn Batchelor said...

Sara: You asked me three questions. I will try to answer them for you. First, it is quite possible that social services will come to visit you. The reason is not because you were charged with stealing. If you stole groceries, that could mean to social services that you may not be able to afford to care for your child. If they come to that conclusion, they may temporarily take your child from you until you are able to care for your child. If you are not receiving welfare, then they will see that you get it so that you can care for your child. It appears from your statement “We had planned a trip” that you are married. If you are planning to go on a trip, then you obviously have enough money to care for your child. Second, if the judge learns that you planned to go on a trip, I don’t think he or she will be too sympathetic towards you. You won’t go to jail but you will probably be given a fine and be put on probation. Third, if you are convicted of attempted theft, you will have a record which means that you won’t be permitted to enter Canada. However, if you are not put on trial before you go on the trip, it is highly unlikely that customs will know of you being charged. In Canada, shoplifters who are not professional shoplifters and it is their first and only offence, many are given the opportunity to attend a lecture about shoplifting and after the lecture is over, the charge will be withdrawn. I wish you good luck

Unknown said...

Thank you so much for the information. This is my first and only offense and I definitely learned my lesson. I am completely ashamed and so sad I put my family through this.
Thank you again for your time.

katherine said...

Hi, I got a civil recovery letter from patrick k martin and I saw this article so I ignored it. The first letter was $500 for about $20 worth of stuff. We were taken under arrest and had to wait inside a room inside winners for 5-6 hours because it took a long time for the police to come (so I guess the security costs made it reach $500). After ignoring the letter, a month later I received another letter but demanding $600 instead. It says that it can take my mom and me to court. Should I pay the $600? I don't want to ruin my moms credit or have her go through the inconvience. Help me please.

katherine said...

I got a second letter about a month later (I ignored the first one from reading this article) from the same guy demanding another $100 more. I don't want to be sued and I know they are cases that people had to go to court. I am only 15 and I dont want my mother sued because of what I did. Should I pay the fine? I'm really scared. i'm afraid that if i ignore this one as well I will get another letter saying to show up in a small claims court. I have 4 days to pay it help please

Unknown said...

Hi mister, I've been charged for 595 from shoplifting, I've received the the letter from Patrick a month ago and I ignore it. Today he sent me another one it's 695 now. What should I do? I have to go apply for osap and go to college in September, would that affect my study?

Jessica Chan said...

I received a letter from Patrick saying i must pay $495 after stealing $23 worth of merchandise from winners with two friends. I was then banned from winners. I ignored the letter then received his "final notice" a month later asking for $595, adding $100 to the previest request. My friends and i were all 16 at the time of the crime. I was wondering if we should pay the second fine? I am only concerned because we spent over 4 hours with the security gaurd, the sales woman who had to stay in the security room with us, one of the head security men in the mall also came along. We spent 4 hours there rather than most who'd spend an hour or so. Would we more likely be sued because we stayed in the security room longer and would need to pay the extra charges of time spent?
My payment for the final notice is due in a week so quick advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you!
-Nancy

Dahn Batchelor said...

Ignor the lawyer's letter. It is a scam.

Dahn Batchelor said...

The messag I have just written applies to everyone who receives a letter from that creepy lawyer.

Dahn Batchelor said...

If any of you get a second letter from that creepy lawyer, wipe your ass with it and mail his letter back to him. That is a message he will never forget.

Jessica Chan said...

So the length of time that the security had to stay with us (4.5 hours) until the police came rather than the usual hour or so, does not affect the costs that winners incurred and could sue for?
This has been bothering me for awhile now as if i were only there for an hour, i would simply ignore the letters but i fear that they may want me to pay for the extra hours the security spent.
Please just clarify this for me, i'd appreciate it!

Dahn Batchelor said...

The store detectives are paid a salary so it doesn't matter whether they are sitting on a toilet or interviewing you, their salary still as to be paid to them. This being as it is, the store didn't have to pay extra money to the security department of the store simply because they were waiting for the police to arrive.

Rooney said...

I've been in a similar situation as many of people in this post. I've recieved two letters from this man and I have no plans to pay him as its a scam. But, I was wondering if he has the right to keep sending me these letters as my family doesn't know about my shoplifting incident. He certainly can't take me and EVERYONE that has shoplifted to court. But, has it happened to anyone in your experiences?

Jackie Liu said...

Hi Dahn, I have a question regarding whether or not Patrick K Martin will send me another letter if I do not pay the initial fee of $500 for shoplifting at Shoppers. If they do, when will they send it? I want to make sure my parents do not see the letter... I would be so ashamed of myself...

Jackie Liu said...

Hi Dahn, I have a question regarding when Patrick K Martin would send me another civil demand letter if I chose to ignore the first one. (I was charged $500 for stealing something worth $10) I am terribly ashamed of myself for committing that crime and I want to make sure my parents do not find out because I would feel so bad for them.

Jackie Liu said...

HI Dahn, I forgot to mention this in my previous comment, but I am going on a trip to Asia and if I was not criminally charged, but given the 65$ fine by the police and ignored the civil demand letter, will there be problems when I cross the border? Will I be stopped in front of my parents? Will I not be able to get aboard a plane? Please help

Dahn Batchelor said...

If you were not charged with shoplifting, then you don't have a criminal record. I think the $65.00 you paid was a fine for trespassing but even then that seems odd considering that only a judge can fine you, not a police officer. Are you sure it was a cop and not the security officer in the store you gave the money to?

Dahn Batchelor said...

This is a message to the recent messages sent by my readers. I have said it time and time again. You don't have to pay that scumbag lawyer any money. Just ignor his letters or better still, write the following on his envelope. RETURN TO SENDER then drop it in the post office. He will get the message.

Anonymous said...

This same situation happened to my family. My son was caught shoplifting, no charges laid, the item was recovered and he was never asked to pay a fine. We received the same letter everyone else has from Patrick K Martin however, we paid $170 of the $495 'settlement' payment, not realizing at the time what crap this was. On a whim, I googled his name and holy holy, was I caught offguard to see all the things (not good) written about this 'man'. My question to you is this. By paying the $170, have we now obligated ourselves to pay the remaining? I spoke with a lawyer who advised paying it in full as this Martin guy could, legally, take us to court. We live in another province. Your thought/opinion?

Dahn Batchelor said...

It was a foolish mistake on your part to pay the #170 but you don't have to pay the balance. The chances of him suing you are as slim as you being appointed as the king of England. Just put it out of your mind . Think about this for a moment. It would cost the store far more money to permit this creep to sue you just to recover the balance he claims is owing.

Anonymous said...

i have recieved a civil demand letter from Patrick Martin. I have not been charged by the policed and was let go. they were also able to take back the 120 dollar item i took. i signed a letter though that i acknowledge that i will recieve this letter but i comply because i wanted to get out of there asap. i ddont want to recieve anymore letter how do i do a denial letter and since i'm a student i cant afford to pay a lawyer so much money for them to make a letter for me how much is it to make such letter i live in GTA.

Dahn Batchelor said...

Just ignore the lawyer's letter. That creep isn't going to sue you because he knows that the court will dismiss the case. Everyone who has written me about receiving this creep's letter has ever been sued by him or the store he represents. If he sends you another letter, send it back with the words, RETURN TO SENDER.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for all your information. I have some questions,
1. Police didn't charge me but asked me are yon gonna pay the fine? i said yes.
What if i dont while i know Hudson's Bay had been recorded everything. Can they access to the officer and say i didnt pay the fine.
2. I have a credit card with The Bay,Can they do sth with that and make my credit bad? do you think its better to deactivate my card?!
3.police got my info and said they are gonna keep in their database, what does it mean? Does it gonna show up in any detailed background check while you didnt charged?! Are they gonna delete our info one day?!
As well as yorkdale security and the Bay who took all my info and a picture.
What will happen to these information? !

Dahn Batchelor said...

First of all, since the police didn't charge you with shoplifting, there is no fine to pay. If they charged you and you went to court and the judge gave you a fine, then you would have to pay the fine. I think the cop was thinking of the money claimed by the lawyer. As I said earlier, don't give the lawyer any money. Secondly, don't worry about the Hudsons Bay telling the cop that you didn't pay the money to the lawyer. It is none of his business. Thirdly, it is unlikely that the HBC will cancel your credit card. They will still want your business. Fourthly, the Toronto police will place the information in their data base but it will not show up as a criminal record. If you were convicted in court, then it would show up as a criminal record but since you weren't charged, don't worry about it.

Unknown said...

Hello Dahn,

I wrote my comment to your blog in a private message on Facebook. Please take a look at your Facebook Message Requests. Thank you in advance!

Unknown said...

Hello Dahn,

I wrote my comment to your blog in a private message on Facebook. Please take a look at your Facebook Message Requests. Thank you in advance!

jayforbes said...

I first received a letter from Patrick K Martin to pay for civil recovery, but I ignored the letter as I talked to multiple lawyers who told me that it was a scare tactic and that he wouldn't go through with anything. I was glad for their help, but about a month later (about three days ago) I received another letter this one titled "Final Notice" to pay for civil recovery or he may take me to civil court. That said, I do not know if to pay or not. IF it is a scam should I continue to ignore it?

Also, I have yet to receive a court date or anything. I have not even talked to an officer so I have no clue if the police was even informed about my case or not. I don't know what to do.

Unknown said...

I am ignoring both letters that I received from this man, thanks for the advice. Although, I do have a different question: On the day that I was apprehended I was given paperwork that said I met protocol and was escorted out of the store by two security guards. Of course they took my information, and I signed a notice that said I was banned which I am totally fine with. On the other hand, the security told me that officers would be coming to my house or would be in contact with me to address my case, but nobody called me. It's been about two months since, and I still don't know if an officer was even told about my case let alone if this is on my record. It was my first (and last) relation to crime, so I really just want to forget all about it and never scoop to that but I am at constant worry as to what will happen because nobody has gotten in contact with me.

Should an officer have already talked to me?

Thanks,
Laura

Dahn Batchelor said...

To Jayforbes: It is a scam. The creep is wasting his stamps sending threatening letters. Just ignore them.

Dahn Batchelor said...

To Laura: The officer is not commming to your door. If he wanted to arrest you, he would have done it when you were apprehended by the security people in the store. Just put the matter our of your mind.

Unknown said...

This same Martin a**h*le sent the Civil Recovery letter NOT ONLY to my current address, but also to my VERY OLD address (I got a call from the people living there now!). How many other old addresses did he send it to? And what can I do to stop him from sending any follow ups to those old addresses? I don't want the people living there to see these letters! I feel like he completely invaded my privacy by sending this type of communication to strangers! How did he even get his hands on an address that I haven't used for years!?

Should I call his office and demand that they stop sending letters to old addresses? Any help would be appreciated!

Dahn Batchelor said...

Lana. There is no need to be concerned that the lawyer is sending letters to your old addresses. No-one at those addresses will know why he is sending the letters to you since it is against the law for anyone other than you to open the letters. Legally, he can send as many letters as he wants. If he is stupid enough to pay for the stamps of letters that you aren't getting at your old addresses, that's his problem, not yours. DO NOT contact the lawyer. Let him think that you have moved to Australia or some other distant land. Contact the people at your old address and ask them to cross out your name on the envelope and write the words, RETURN TO SENDER. That should do the trick.

Unknown said...

Thank you for your reply!

Cath N. said...

Hi Dahn,
I have a slightly different situation. My letter didn't come from the same lawyer as the one named above. Also, I did fill out the credit card information and took your advice to cancel the payment. Now I received another letter saying that I need to make a cheque (the original amount plus admin fees) to the lawyer's trust account, otherwise they will take appropriate proceedings against me, without further notice or delay.

I really learned from this lesson and I am lucky that I was not being charged. But this is worrying me so much. Will I get sued in the civil court? I am very worried that this would affect my background check in job search as I know a civil judgement could show up in background check and this will ruin my life. Could you please give me some guidance on my situation? Thank you so much!

Dahn Batchelor said...

Do not be alarmed. This layer creep won`t sue you because he knows that he will lose the case. Since he isn`t going to sue you, nothing of this matter will; end up in the Credit Bureau.

Cath N. said...

Hi Dahn,

I am so grateful that you responded to my concerns! Thank you so much! My other question is, I am from Montreal, does your answer apply to my case too? Also, the police did come but didn't charge me but informed me that they will have a note in their system. My second question is, will it affect my background check for employment and travel outside of Canada? I am really afraid that this stupid mistake will cause my career and not being able to see my family outside of Canada.

Thanks again!

Dahn Batchelor said...

The note in the police possession will not have an effect on your employment since it is only in the note book of the police officer. Since you were not charged with shoplifting, your =employer will not no that you were once a shoplifter.

Cath N. said...

What about traveling? Would custom go out of their way to look into detail search as in police notebook? Is it something that I should be concerned about and seek legal assistance?
Thanks once again for the time you put into answering my questions!

Dahn Batchelor said...

Customs only questions you when you are returning to Canada and they certainly don't
care about your history since all they want to know is what you are bringing back to Canada. As I said earlier, what is in the officer's note book with respect to you shop lifting goes no further since you were not charged with shop lifting by the police officer.

Cath N. said...

Thank you Dahn for taking the time to answer all my questions, I truly thankful!